Ep #56: Finding Our Way Out of the ‘Ick’ with Kat Haugh
Episode Summary
Jenna and Kat Haugh get honest about business by identifying thoughts that hold them back and sharing tips for moving beyond false limitations.
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Show Notes
Life as a female entrepreneur can be exhausting, especially when a wrench is thrown into the mix. Our brains can keep us feeling low while unbalanced expectations of our business run rampant. This week, Kat Haugh shares her perspective on negativity biases, getting honest with our emotional roots, and much more.
Kat Haugh is a client of mine and the founder of the Convive Collective, a learning and strategy partner to social good organizations. Kat comes on the show to share some of her current challenges within her business-life balance and how she's been able to work through her negative self-talk.
Learn why your negativity biases can help you identify boundaries and the core values of your business. Discover tools that Kat uses to get honest with shortcomings, shift quickly, and celebrate where she is in her entrepreneurial journey.
What You’ll Learn From This Episode:
How to reverse negative biases.
How to be honest with shortcomings.
Tools for addressing your perspective.
How to celebrate micro-wins.
When to pause and check-in.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Full Episode Transcript:
Having a business can be an emotional roller coaster. Let’s just call it like it is. And one of the hardest things is that as women with powerful visions of what this business could be, the reality of where we are now compared to that can bring up a lot of dissatisfaction.
And those negative thoughts and feelings get in the way of your current enjoyment and the way you show up for your audience, your clients, your team members. And it blocks you from manifesting more of the good things you want. It is a vicious cycle.
Today, we’re talking about how to reverse it. No, really, I mean, really, what are the secrets to reversing that brain tendency? My guest has some great answers.
You’re listening to The Uncommon Way Business and Life Coaching podcast. The only podcast that helps you unlock your next level in business and life by prioritizing your clarity and your own uncommon way. You will learn to maximize your mindset, mission, messaging and strategy in order to create a true legacy. Here’s your host, top ranked business coach and reformed over-analyzer turned queen of clarity, Jenna Harrison.
Hello, my friends, welcome back to The Uncommon Way. Big treat for you all, today my friend and client Kat Haugh is back on the podcast to share amazing pieces of wisdom with us. I say us because you’ll hear me later on getting my own epiphanies based on her words. And I did not throw her a softball topic, I asked her to come on and talk about nothing less than reorienting the human tendency to see what isn’t working, instead of what is.
Kat calls this being in the ick. And we’re talking about managing our brain’s negativity bias, which is an inherent part of our biology that has been a helpful bit of our evolution, but also keeps us in the experience of seeing the glass half empty instead of half full and all of the dissatisfaction and inner critic bullying that comes with it.
Now, previously on the podcast I’ve told you that I see a distinct difference between the results of clients who are beginning the work of rewriting this negativity bias, meaning their brain still tends to go to the negative, versus clients who have been doing this work for a bit more and can be okay or even excited about the present. And I want to help you be one of the people seeing better results. So let’s talk about this.
Now, what I don’t want is any shaming around where you are on this journey. There is nothing wrong with you, it just means you have a working brain. Kat and I really want to normalize this for everyone, we were talking before we started recording.
I remember being so dissatisfied in my corporate job and having people say, “Why can’t you just be happy with all of this that you’ve created?” And so on top of beating myself up for not having the life I wanted, I was beating myself up for not being grateful. And that was not serving me.
So the point of this episode is just to offer some helpful tips and advice. It’s women giving other women a hand from a place of I have been there too. And for any of you in the Clarity Accelerator listening to this, please don’t go the route of not talking about your doubts or dissatisfaction or other negative thoughts because you either want to look like a good student or you want me to approve or whatever.
Gaslighting ourselves and slapping happy sounding sound bites into our experience when we don’t really feel it will just delay the process of creating change. Kat is where she is and how she is because she’s willing to get real and then do the work around it.
So yes, this is not a softball topic, but I knew Kat would be up to the challenge. Not only because she walks the talk herself, but because she’s used to taking complex ideas or situations and distilling the learning and the wisdom from it.
For those of you who haven’t had the pleasure of listening to Kat’s first podcast, she’s the founder of The Convive Collective, which offers strategic partnership and coaching to philanthropies and investment agencies that are investing in social or environmental good. Convive works at the intersection of evaluation, so evaluating how well different social good projects have worked, at that intersection of evaluation, strategy, visual storytelling and organizational design.
And that lets her see all of the moving pieces within those organizations that no one else can see in order to help them make better decisions about funding and even to implement cultural change within the organization itself so they can step into the vision of the organization that they want to be, and be even more effective and create even more change in the world.
So Kat did a fantastic job of breaking down for you how she’s been able to shift our mindset. And then shortly after we recorded this, I had the happy surprise of receiving a voice note from her saying that there was something else she’d remembered. So I’m going to share that with you now, and it’s the idea that the difficulties we’re going through right now might be our treasure later on.
She said that of all the podcasts and female entrepreneurs that she listens to, the stories she’s most drawn to are about how they’ve overcome something and then turned that into their passion. So wellness coaches that struggled with emotional eating, or financial coaches that struggled with managing their money.
So based on all of that, the secret hack or the advice she came up with would be to zoom out and really think about how all the pain points you’ve had in the past have really led you to the brilliance that you have today. I love that so much and I know you are going to love this entire episode. Enjoy.
Jenna: Kat, thank you so much for being here again.
Kat: I’m so excited. Thanks for having me on again.
Jenna: So I’m realizing that there’s a big disconnect between the last time you came on the podcast and now. And, of course, I know it because I get to see it every week, but not everyone else does. So I just thought it would be fun to quickly go back in time and remind both of us that when you came on last time you were a freelancer that was wanting to grow into something different, but you were wearing so many different hats.
I remember you described it that way. And it was difficult for you to synthesize for yourself, let alone go forth and talk about it to clients. And you didn’t really know how to talk about the work you were doing. And I think there was also a component of you feeling like you might make the wrong decision and spending a lot of time in your head talking things over with different people trying to get other opinions.
And then also until recently, and that’s what we were talking about on the podcast, you hadn’t understood that you could choose the kind of clients you wanted. And so you were just talking, you never knew who to say yes to who to say no to. And so you were just saying yes to everyone.
Kat: Yep. Yeses everywhere.
Jenna: It’s fun to look back on that. But just to now let people know, kind of catch them up, you do have an agency model now. You are providing a much broader service to your people and you know what it is that you provide.
Kat: Yes, absolutely. I was even looking back at my messaging document this morning and rereading my words and being like, wow, I have so much clarity on paper about what my company is and who we serve and what we do and how we do it. So it was really affirming to read that back this morning.
And I’m really grateful to have had the time with you on the podcast before, because I think you really caught me at a moment in time in my transformation where it’s exactly as you described, going from freelancer who didn’t quite have the words to describe what I do and why I’m such a badass, to now really running my own company and building my own team.
And it’s really an awesome opportunity to have this moment to reflect with you too, as I’m very much in the thick of it, as we’ll discuss in a moment, like kind of the good, the bad and the ugly.
Jenna: Yes, yes. And so I love that segue, that’s exactly where I wanted to go because I want to stay away – We’re going to be talking about basically a really challenging thing for any human, which is overcoming our negativity bias. And actually being able to be really happy with where we are in the moment and use that moment very constructively to build the future, an even better future than what we have right now.
But I don’t want people to make the assumption that it’s because of the good things you’re bringing into your life right now, in the business. I want to really get real about the challenges that are in your business right now. Because I know six months from now we’ll look back and we’ll think, oh yeah, that was a tough time where you are now.
And capturing it, but still really being able to dissect how it is that you think differently than so many other people, I think, will be so helpful. Because I’ve seen over and over again with my clients a pretty big distinction in terms of how the brain works, right, where they are in their journey of managing their mind. And then how that translates into results.
And so it’s so important that we can help accelerate that journey for anyone else going through it because it’s only going to be a net gain for them.
Kat: That’s so great. I love that.
Jenna: So let’s dive in and let’s just talk about all the things that are challenging in your business right now.
Kat: Well, the list is long, I will say. There’s lots of things that are challenging me. I think the thing that comes to mind first, and that we’ve been speaking about, is really that I’ve been burning the candle at both ends. And this looks like working really long hours, sometimes even working on the weekends or late into the evening.
But also, in reflecting on it, doing a kind of a lot of like energetically or intellectually draining work that’s oftentimes really rewarding, but asks a lot of me. To come to meetings with an agenda prepped, to really facilitate workshops or things like that with an extra personal touch that’s signature to my company. And so that when I reflect on how I’m spending my time and my weeks, it’s very much, yeah, a lot of my energy and time is going to my work.
And the downside of that is that I often have less energy and capacity for the people in my life. So oftentimes, even now, I struggle after work to go hang out with friends and feel that I can be my energetic, curious, available self. I’m usually like, I have to get home and go to bed soon because I have had such a crazy day.
Similarly my relationship, like having the capacity to even ask my partner like, oh, how was your day or what happened today to you? Usually, when I have been overworking a lot, it’s been more like just trying to survive. Not to be dramatic, but being like, what are we eating for dinner? And we have to respond to that message from your mom or something, and less time for spaciousness and spontaneity in our relationship too.
And I think in my lower moments it has made me feel less of myself because I feel so tired and so spent when I’m not working that, yeah, it’s made me question in moments like, wait, why am I working this hard? I wanted to set up a freelancer lifestyle and my business also to help me live the way that I want to live with more spaciousness and slowness and relaxation.
I think another big thing maybe folks who are listening will key into or could relate with is my nervous system kind of always being in overdrive when I’m working like this. So I’m drinking coffee, I’m doing lots of HIT workouts, I’m pumping my body full of kind of like, I don’t know if it’s adrenaline or what, but I’m psyching myself up for my days. Or starting my day sometimes with dread, not necessarily about what I have to do, but the amount that I’ve put on my plate. That, I think, has been a key continued pain point and challenge.
I’m experiencing a bit of a reprieve right now, mostly circumstantial. A lot of my clients are off on holiday or are retreating, they’re on a retreat this week. So I’ve had kind of a normal week this week to step back and re-remember what it’s like to live with a bit more balance. But I know that in the coming weeks I will likely be pressed to maintain my wellness and work life balance goals that we’ve been talking about.
Jenna: Right, right. And I also, you know, when you think about the structure of your company as well, you have some people that you’ve brought on, but there are still some big holes in areas that could be filled. And that is contributing to the fact that you’re having to take so much on yourself and kind of do project management and organize everything and also be the client-facing person and also be the genius.
Kat: Yeah, everything is coming. I’m my own bottleneck in my organization right now because I have about five consultants that work with us who are outstanding, but they haven’t really been client-facing. And I haven’t learned the skills or I don’t feel quite confident and comfortable yet in having them take the lead or, for example, do something kind of different than I would have done it.
So I’m kind of everywhere in addition to my bookkeeping, my taxes, and my financial advising. I joke with people, I’m like, I’m head of marketing, I’m head of finance, I’m like all the heads in my company right now. And while I can see that this is a pressure point of growth that I’m in right now and I am devolving more, I guess, ownership to the consultants that I’m working with and kind of training them and giving them feedback Convive style and coaching my clients on how to work with us, not just how to work with me.
It is definitely a pressure point right now that I can see I’m very much in the thick of it of being an octopus and having like eight arms. That’s what it feels like a lot of times.
Jenna: Right, right. And I think maybe something else as well, that if we’re looking forward to kind of the ideal business and how it will be. Right now there’s also a bit of financial insecurity, even though you’re earning well, you’re bringing in. But there’s the idea that you can’t necessarily bring in more clients right now because of the capacity that you have to fulfill that. And then what happens if you lose a client or two? Talk about that.
Kat: Absolutely. I’ve brought in a huge client this year doing work that I really want to do at the intersection of all of my skills. So that’s been a really happy mirroring, as we’ve discussed, of my clarity and my ability to speak about what we do and then clients coming to us for what we do. So that’s been a really happy match.
But because they’ve been such a significant client for my company, that also presents, while it presents some kind of like awesome financial return, a bit of stress or insecurity as well. Because I’m bringing on more consultants to support that work, as you mentioned. That also, I think, in planning and making life decisions makes me feel insecure or out of control sometimes thinking about how much of my income and the income of Convive is contingent on one client.
So I think it’s a blessing in some ways, but also presents some challenges in others. And I think I haven’t quite nailed my level of calm and confidence that I’d like to have with my own financial planning for Convive of looking at my numbers, enjoying that process.
I’ve started to enjoy that a bit more. But I think I’m also evolving quite quickly from looking at projects and thinking like, okay, how much would I charge? And now I’m thinking like, how much would we charge with multiple people’s costs embedded? And, yeah, trying to find the right way to do those kinds of projections is definitely a growth edge for me right now.
Jenna: Yes. Yes. And so if I were hearing a different client talking about the exact same thing, I might also in tandem be hearing things like, I’m never going to get out of the grind. I’ve always been in the hustle. Is this what it’s going to be like? Why can’t I ever get some peace? Why can’t I ever get to the point where I feel like I’m secure financially? Why isn’t this working? Why aren’t I further along by now?
And these, I just really want to normalize these thoughts because one of the things that we have to be careful of in having this discussion, which we really want to use to help people, is to watch out for building more shame for people, right?
So if someone’s already thinking, my business isn’t where I want it to be and I’m having thoughts and feelings about that, and now Kat and Jenna are telling me that I should actually be happy and positive about that, then there’s even more shame. I’m doing it wrong in yet another way now. And that’s not where we want to go at all because we are wired with a negativity bias.
And so the brain is constantly scanning all the ways in which we’re not content just to make sure we can optimize. And I think that it’d be really helpful, Kat, if you could just help us normalize by talking about some times in your life previously where you also were kind of having that pattern, that very normal human pattern that we all have.
Kat: Well, I can say at least some of the thoughts that you just mentioned, I definitely still have those now.
Jenna: Okay.
Kat: So I don’t have to search that far into the past for like, oh yeah, I used to feel that way sometimes and now I’m evolved and all as well. I definitely still struggle with a lot of the things that you mentioned. Sometimes wondering like, oh, this should be moving faster, or I wish that I was better at this or kind of like getting down on myself sometimes.
One thing that I am struggling with recently, of the many struggles we’ve discussed, is actually my comfort in trusting other people to lead the way and stepping back. We’ve spoken about this, even with my clients I’m like, okay, let me do this for you. Let me finish this. I’ve got this. Don’t worry, you can sit back and relax.
And I think that actually is parallel to my personal life of having some reluctance or resistance to receiving being taken care of or letting other people control like, okay, this is what we’re going to do tonight or you sit on the couch and relax and I’m going to cook dinner or things like that.
So that’s one example of a very present struggle for me that I sometimes think like, why am I the way that I am? Why can’t I just trust people or let them lead the way and kind of let go of control? So I’m sure that will be coming up more and more in our forthcoming sessions.
But I can definitely think of, I mean, two examples beyond that in the past, the recent past come to mind. First is something that I was struggling with and still sometimes struggle with in our work like a few months ago, where I was really hell bent on proving to myself and others that I was credible and legit enough.
You may remember I was like, I need a website so people know that I’m legit. I need to go to Harvard Business School and get a certificate in business so people know I’m legit. And even I had said something to you recently about, oh, we are similar to McKinsey, so people will think that we’re legit. And so I think that that’s something that is very revealing to me now about my own thoughts about my legitimacy and credibility as a person.
And I think I can see now in retrospect how that was holding me back. Kind of this level of desperation or choose me or prove myself energy that I brought to calls or meetings or when people asked for information about my company. So I think that’s in the recent, like the past few months I’ve definitely been struggling with that.
And maybe about a few years ago I was working at a company that had a five year contract with USAID and it was closing down. And at the end of it we kind of found out that some people from the team got selected to basically be on the next five year contract and other people didn’t. And I was not selected and that bruised my ego.
I was so upset, I just could not understand. It felt like not being chosen for the kickball team and standing there and being like, why not me? I work so hard. And feeling really lost and confused. And what made it worse was that of the remaining folks who were with me in that kickball line that weren’t chosen, they were also getting job offers from other companies. And they were like, oh, well, don’t worry because I actually already have this job offer with this other company.
And I was like maybe the last one or two of people who didn’t have a job offer and I had to go out and find one with extreme desperation at that time. And I think, I mean, that is a very obvious, I think, struggle. It’s an obvious struggle, it’s not a great experience for anybody. But reflecting on that time and what I thought about myself was very, very negative.
Like what I made that experience mean about me. I was like, I’m dumb. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m not legit. People don’t want to hire me. And I think it potentially seeded some new thoughts there, like the reason why people want to hire me is because I’m a relentless hard worker. I will put in the hours, I will work on the weekends, I will work on the evenings, not because I’m brilliant and I have my own zone of genius.
So I ultimately ended up finding a job and kind of my life moved forward from that point. But I distinctly remember that time of being like, this is a terrible situation, I don’t see it getting any better. And being really the breeding grounds for some pretty negative self-talk that I think I’m still undoing.
Jenna: Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that and for being vulnerable because I know there are moments like that, that we all can relate to. But especially in business, that actually translates so well to business where you’re thinking, why aren’t they hiring me? And why are other people seeming to have it so easy and I’m not, right? And when will it get to the point where it just comes easily and I’m the one getting all the job offers? And so, yeah, it’s so, so applicable.
So let’s go now and kind of then jump back in time to the future. We’ve already laid the groundwork for the challenges that you have now. And let’s just start talking then, and I want people, A, I want them to hear how you think now because when we don’t know what’s different, it’s just hard to know what we don’t know.
And it’s so helpful to hear other people’s thoughts and to start playing with those for yourself, right? And be like, I guess I could think of it that way. And then let’s kind of dissect why you’re able to think of it that way. So yeah, so how are you thinking about your current situation?
Kat: Well, I think one of the things that I have been doing lately is really thinking of my business as separate from me and my worthiness as a human. I think reflecting on that time in my life where I couldn’t find a job and nobody was choosing me.
Which I think I’ve also had other experiences in my dating history where I’ve also had moments where I was like, no one’s choosing me. And what I chose to make that mean about myself and how I responded, ironically, very similarly, with kind of like overworking and trying to meet as many people as possible and bringing even more desperation energy. Just reflecting back on those kinds of experiences in my life.
I think a trial by fire learning is really that if folks are coming to me for work or not, it doesn’t make me, as a person, any less worthy, any less brilliant, or less legit. So I’ve kind of separated, what’s happening in my business and who I feel and how worthy I feel as a person.
So I think that’s been, yeah, a maturity in me that I feel happy about thinking about the future because I’m like, no matter what happens, it’s just information for me. And I can take it in and consider it as like data or information that I’m like, oh, that’s interesting, this person emailed me. Or like, oh, that’s interesting, that person never emailed me back, that’s interesting. Where I’m not like, oh, they didn’t email me because I suck or my email sucked.
Jenna: That is huge. That is huge, taking all the experiences just as data and stepping back from it. That is so huge, and we’ll talk about kind of how you got there. But that’s so good. What are some of the other ways you think about the situation?
Kat: I think one thing that I was reflecting on and preparing for this conversation was about the level of faith that I feel about the future. Where this happened to me recently, and I think as we’ve been talking about, this is kind of like nascent thoughts that I’ve been having, so it’s a great moment in time to capture this.
And I think recently I’ve had some experiences where I’ve been working on things and I’ve just been so absolutely sure that what I can see in my mind’s eye about what my company will do and what’s possible for my clients will absolutely happen.
And in a weird way, it’s allowed me to kind of let go of the need to make sure it will happen or needing it to happen on a specific timeframe where I’m just like, that will happen and I’m so excited, and it will happen. Like I just trust the process, which as you know me very well at this point, I’m not really a trust the process kind of gal. I’m like a plan for it and execute it and control it kind of person.
Jenna: Right, right.
Kat: And we can probably get into that a bit more, like the thoughts undergirding that. But that’s been a new transition of the faith in the future.
And I think the one last thought that I have now that’s been different is that the future state won’t be any better or worse than my current state. I feel like even in my life, where I am in my life, this applies to my personal life. Sometimes I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s going to be so fun to have a family and have small kids running around and to be a homeowner and to do all of these things.
And sometimes I have to catch myself and remember that when I’m there, I might miss where I am now, of being without children right now, being able to travel, having lots of free time, lots of time and energy. Not that that’s not true when you have kids, of course. I’ll probably have to like uncouple that in my own mind, but just like how joyful and amazing my life is now and holding them both in tandem.
I think that thought, like, I will miss this someday. I will miss where I am in life one day. And that I think also helps me feel not like I’m reaching towards a desired future state, but more like that’s going to be so fun and I’m also so psyched about what I’m doing right now.
Jenna: Oh, that’s so good. Yes, because in the future, also, you’ll have more opportunities for that negativity bias to take over in that situation, too, right? In that future you could be thinking, oh my gosh, it’s so hard having these kids and I never, right, whatever, whatever, as many people have already heard me do on the podcast, so no shame if that’s how you are.
But noticing that really it’s about the way we’re thinking about our present and that’s how it’s going to be in our future as well. And so learning to love where you are, the sooner we can do that the better.
Kat: Yeah, I think I used to think, especially when we first started working together, I was really fixated on the future. I was like, and then in the next couple of months I’m going to be here and then the next couple of months I’m going to be here. And I almost had moments where I couldn’t tolerate the presence because it gave me the ick. I was like, I just don’t want to be here anymore, I just want to be there.
Jenna: Yes.
Kat: And I felt that a lot. All of the time. I think even one time I told you, I was like, I think I’m in a dark place because I just, the ick was sometimes, yeah, really overwhelming and the desire to exit the present moment and be like, this sucks, I hate this. Yeah, just feeling really down or overwhelmed, really committed to getting out of this and getting there.
And I think in reflecting on that time and even what I’m experiencing now, I think my key reflection is asking myself, what do I hope I’ll feel in the future? So the legit-ness is a thing, like, oh, well, once I get this client, or I make this amount of money, or I have a website, or I speak at a conference, then I’ll be legit.
But I think it’s like, I’ve been on this path long enough to know that none of those external things sometimes happen. And just those things alone, obviously, didn’t change my mind about how legit I am or how good enough I am. I used to be in a pretty negative cycle, and I think I can still go there with ego and money and setting certain financial goals.
And I think I remember telling you never knowing where the ceiling was for myself. Where I would set certain financial goals, and then I would reach them but I would just keep going. Like this not enough bottomless pit feeling, which is very much related to my own feeling of feeling not good enough or not legit enough and needing external validation in either how much money I’m making or otherwise.
So I think asking myself like, oh, what do I hope I’ll feel? And then feeling that now, feeling it ahead of time and being like, I am legit. And having you look at my work and talk to me and be like, you are legit. And me being like, I am legit and I actually believe that, I think has been a game changer for me to decrease the haste and desperation and the focus on the future.
Jenna: If you can tap into how you already have that now.
Kat: Yeah.
Jenna: And help your brain see because the brain won’t just naturally bring up all that evidence for you of the ways in which you are legit, because it’s so busy helping you prove that you’re not legit.
Kat: Yeah, absolutely.
Jenna: So when you can start to direct your brain to start picking all the supportive evidence, right, then you will create a different narrative for yourself.
Kat: The other exercise that you helped me do that I think has been helpful, and I didn’t even realize that I have now been doing it a little bit more, is the kind of like when you think of all the positives and you think of all the negatives and then you flip them.
Jenna: Yes.
Kat: Because I think that even as we had just talked about, we’re working with a large client who’s paying our company a significant amount. You might think, oh my gosh, that’s such outstanding, fabulous, success. But also the other side of it is that it presents a lot of volatility and scarcity. And it’s also more paperwork, invoicing, like there’s maybe like eight sides to every story.
But kind of seeing one thing from multiple angles, I think also has helped me help my brain see that even if I got this thing that I wanted, I’m not 100% convinced that it would make me happier. For example, I might be like, oh, actually, if we did win that contract I don’t even know that we could say yes because I might want to prioritize my wellness, or that actually might not be the thing that’s going to make me happier.
It could actually, like I think I sometimes I’m like, oh, that would be awesome. And then I’m like, wait, but it could also not be that great. And actually doing that reversal with myself, I think, has been really useful.
Jenna: Yes. Yes. So that’s a great point because in the podcast before we’ve talked about choice neutrality, which is in The Should I Say Yes or Should I Say No podcast. But there’s also circumstance neutrality that you can create with your brain.
So if you’re really wanting that client or that, I don’t know, that contract to come in, you can create some neutrality around that by looking at what would be best possible, maybe if you didn’t have that client and you had more space to then bring in a different kind of client. There are different ways that you can help your brain detach from its hooks into that particular thing that you think you want so much.
Kat: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We’re looking to buy an apartment, I think I mentioned this to you. And one of my friends, I was telling her, she was like, oh, it’s such an emotional roller coaster buying an apartment. And I was kind of like, I don’t know, I think it’s because of the work that we’ve been doing. I’m just like, again, like if it’s meant for us, we’ll find each other.
I’m just like, yes, I love that apartment. Let’s put a bid on it if it’s right. And I just, I don’t know, I think because I can see both sides and I’ve developed this kind of like faith in business, but also in life, that’s like what is meant for me and when my energy is right it matches, that I’m less, I guess, up and down volatile myself. I’m like, oh, we didn’t get that house. I’m like, okay, that just means that it wasn’t our house. Like it’s not our home, great. We self-select.
So I hope I can listen back to this mantra if I need it in the future. Maybe when clients are a little bit sparser or I’m feeling a little bit less sure about my future and the right things coming. But I have seen it show up in other areas of my life.
Jenna: Yes, yes, thank you for sharing all of those and all the hacks and tips you’ve been using. I’ll say there’s one other thing I’ve noticed that I consider some of our most important work, and I’ve been seeing you do it. Which is in the moment of ick, or in the moment of frustration when our brain could go negative, I see you analyzing that for what it’s teaching you and the skills you’re building.
And you get so excited. You’ve left me voice messages saying this shitty thing just happened and I’m so excited because it’s really helping me see that X. And that is the difference, I think. It’s such a huge difference. So talk about that, please.
Kat: Thank you for bringing that up. Even just thinking about it makes me smile and makes me want to laugh because, honestly, I think it’s like the best coping mechanism that I have found for navigating life’s negative shitty twists and turns sometimes and having circumstances where, for example, I have to disappoint someone or I’ve had a tough conversation or things just don’t go my way or clients don’t respond or like all sorts of things are always happening.
And I think I’ve developed that muscle, I think it’s like towards self-development and self-reflection. Because I’m like, where’s the fun and, as my partner calls it, the golden lining?
Jenna: Oh, nice.
Kat: So it’s not the silver lining, but what’s the golden lining of this? And I love that, I think I’m very much a person who I value, I think, finding that golden lining and the positivity and learning and self-development. I can think this is so shitty, but I’m going to grow and I’m not going to have to experience this again. And then I see myself communicating more clearly with the next consultant that I hire.
And I’m like, wow, look, I did not have to experience that again because I really sat with the negative feeling or the experience and I learned from it. So I think that in all honesty, it’s my way to kind of cope and evolve so I don’t have to feel shitty and then keep feeling shitty because I’m not learning or really allowing myself to say this was an absolute disaster and I don’t want to experience this again.
Jenna: Right. So often clients will say something like, I just wish I were at this level of income, right, bringing in this many clients. And I’ll have to ask, is your business prepared for that? Could you really handle that if you brought that in? Would you know how to manage that? How would you feel about the fact that you weren’t there to have the control with each client making sure they were getting the results? Are you mentally prepared to step back and let them get their results?
There are so many pieces that go into it, into creating that goal. And if we can understand as we’re doing it exactly why we’re doing it and the capacity we’re building, I think it just helps us ease our minds around the situation.
And for you, a perfect example is, well, first of all, last time we talked you were having a problem, a difficulty with one of your contractors with some work. And now you’ve learned so much about how you want to set up your contractor relationships and the people that you hire and bring in so that now you’re in a place where you’ve seen the difference and you’re having really, really wonderful, creative and supportive experiences with the people working with you.
Kat: Yeah, absolutely. It is really amazing to see the other side of it and to think I actually had a very similar thing happen as what happened in the past. And I was like, oh, this is my approach and my feelings about it are totally different and I really could see it very distinctly. Like, wow, I’ve actually really grown because I’ve been presented with the same situation and I feel completely different, much more calm and respectful and less reactive than in the past.
One thing, I’m not sure if you would agree with this or not, that I have been reflecting on is, I think sometimes it’s also helpful for me to hear other people’s perspectives that helped me do that thought reversal. So I think I mentioned to you that one of my friends here also owns a business and she has employees. And she mentioned like, oh, I actually am not sure that that’s the right model for us anymore. I think I want to go to having consultants for XYZ reasons.
And I just thought that was so fascinating because I had built in my mind having employees would be good for XYZ reasons, the exact opposite. And she was basically saying like, oh, basically, your situation, the way you have it set up is I think where we want to go. And I was kind of like, I’m kind of coming for your situation.
So it was a fun moment to actually reinforce that neither is better, you know, like, oh, well, I’ve arrived at success or happiness once I have employees or this much money or a website or whatever. And I even heard other freelancers who have been like, I haven’t wanted to start my own business and my own team because I really enjoy these elements of earning at a cap, maybe this amount, specifically earning less or taking more time off or being more intimately involved with clients and managing everything.
And that has also made me think, like, yeah, that’s such a good point. I could also go down this journey of building my own team and realize, oh, actually, I don’t know that I like this as much as I liked freelancing and be like, okay, guys, I’m going to roll it back.
So I think it’s a good reminder for me, again, also in friendships and other circumstances that no one situation is better than the other. And I won’t necessarily feel better just by changing something in my business. It’s really, what am I seeking? And how can I feel that already now with what I’m experiencing?
Jenna: Yes, yes. And noticing all the things that are going right, that are wonderful. All the really positive interactions you’re having right now. And I know we mentioned earlier, we started the podcast talking about how you are working so much and you’re the bottleneck, as you described it. But there’s a reason for that, too.
And the reason is that you’re doing it yourself first, so that you’re more able to build out that team and see exactly what the players would be and what people would be doing.
And so I hear that a lot when you’re talking to me. This situation helped me see both where I want to draw my boundaries and why that’s important to me and I’m choosing to be okay with it, even if my clients are disappointed. But also, I’m understanding better how I am going to build that future, which I feel so certain about. And you’ve talked about how your belief is so high, and now you’re just putting all the pieces together.
Kat: Absolutely. I think it’s also for folks listening who may be in a moment where they’re in the ick or they’re kind of experimenting a lot with things and learning. I think the small wins are really important to me in noticing I got marginally better at this time. Or like I had that experience and now I know how to bill better, or I know how to recruit for somebody who’s aligned better.
Just the very small wins, because I think that keeps me going. So really paying attention to, yeah, even if it’s marginal like, oh, I now know to offer this as an option to this client, where a few weeks ago I wouldn’t even have thought of that. So I think that helps me find the golden lining while I’m evolving and while there’s a lot of challenges to me right now and a lot of like pain points that I’m feeling in my work.
I think the other piece that keeps me having faith in the future, I think, is a shift that I have noticed in myself and my thoughts about my work being about me and my ego and me being like, I need to go out there and prove that I’m legit. I need people to hire me so I know that I’m legit. And I need to show them what I can do.
And something has shifted, I think pretty recently, maybe in the past month or two where I’m like, I’m just so convinced, kind of like Georgeanne said, I love my company and I love our offer. And I’m just so deeply convinced of its value and the need for it in my field, that I’m like, I’m going to be on this journey for a long time. I’m going to be working on this for a very long time.
And I think that commitment also helps me feel a sense of faith in the future where I’m like, the world needs this. I’m creating it. I can see, I’m like, I’m going to have this training and even I’ve told you, I want to write a book. And I’m like in due time, because it’s not about me and my ego. It’s about my brilliance, of course, and my zone of genius, but it’s like the world needs this and I’m seeing a gap. And I’m like, we’re going to be filling in.
And I think that is much more deeply motivating. It’s like a gravitational force than what I felt previously, which was maybe like a small engine of my own individual ego. I feel pulled by something rather than pushing my way in there.
Jenna: Ah, what a great metaphor. I love that so much. And I just love seeing the power of clarity played out in real-time like this. That level of belief. And we think that, so often we get into the trap of thinking we either are or aren’t there, rather than realizing we build that shit.
Kat: Yeah.
Jenna: We create those thoughts and that belief for ourselves by eliminating all the baggage and crap. And then also really doing the work to understand it more fully for ourselves, so that then we can go out and see it in the world and help others see it too.
Kat: Absolutely.
Jenna: And what you were saying before, I’m so glad you brought it up about seeing the micro wins and the small shifts. That is the key to manifestation. And so, again, not to shame anyone for the negativity bias that they may be experiencing in the moment because, just like you said, I experience it too. And it’s just I don’t spend as much time there as I used to, is really what it comes down to.
But when we can start shifting into this other energy, it just makes the manifesting happen sometimes at warp speed, right? We start seeing the shifts and the changes so quickly. And that has certainly been your experience, which I can see from the outside. And I see that direct connection to the way you’re thinking, right?
But it’s hard when you’re not there to see it. And that’s why I wanted to bring you on the podcast, is to help people see the difference and to give them a roadmap for what they can start implementing themselves.
Kat: Yeah, I love that. And I think I was just reflecting on this this morning because I was back in my company’s messaging document, just looking back there. And I thought, you know, reflecting on some of the values that I put down there, one thing that I have kind of, I guess, built in myself is a practice of appreciation, of noticing the small wins and appreciating myself.
But I notice that when I do it for others, it generates, like it mirrors back into me. So when I notice, for example, or give appreciation that’s from a genuine place, not a people pleasing place or notice like, oh wow, you really up-leveled or this got even better of the people that I’m working with, it strengthens the muscle and the attention to that.
So I think that thinking about my future self feeling stuck or caught up in the ick or feeling like why can’t I just get this right? I definitely have sticky points with my financial management or my boundaries with work and relaxation that continue to come up for me.
But when I’m in those moments I think I would like to give myself and other people listening the advice or tactic to try to like when you mirror it and exercise it because sometimes it is easier to see it in others. And I think that the practice of doing that is very generative. I think it leads to really healthy and beautiful relationships.
But I’ve noticed that the more that I do it for my consultants, the more I do it for myself where I’m like, oh my god, Kat. I can be very self-congratulatory in the best way because I’m seeing that I’m exercising the muscle with the people that I work with too.
Jenna: Wow. Okay, I love this so much. You just gave me the big epiphany of another reason in which coaching is such healing work. Because you’re right, I’m doing that all the time for my clients, helping them see the micro wins that they don’t necessarily see themselves. And you’re right, that’s strengthening my muscle, my ability to do it. I never thought about that. A great benefit.
Kat: I definitely hear your voice a lot in my head, especially on the deeper thoughts where I’m like, I’m not legit. And I hear you being like, but you’re so legit. And I’m like, I am so legit. So you being there as a champion for me in the micro wins and the fact that I can voice note you and be like, the shittiest thing happen and do that with laughter and being like, okay, but this is going to get better because I learned.
This is such a tremendous value to me that has really encoded itself in my brain. I don’t know that I would have had this revelation had we not been working together. So I’m glad that my epiphany also mirrored an epiphany for you.
Jenna: Right, right. So symbiotic, as all of these relationships should be. And as everyone listening, I want you to also have this with your clients, regardless of if you’re a coach, or a web designer, whatever you do, right? Feeling like you know why you’re doing this, who you’re doing it for, why they love you, why you love them, how clear it is for you to talk about it and be joyful, and why you’re doing it. And then just start reaping the results.
Kat: Yeah. And the last piece on that is sometimes we’ve spoken about in the past I can have the tendency to judge my clients where I’m like, why don’t they have their shit together? Why is this such a mess? And I think that is very much an extension of my own tendency to judge myself, like why don’t I have my shit together? Why am I such a mess?
And I think that probably one of the reasons why noticing the micro wins is beneficial and mutually reinforcing is really because it shows you kind of like what you’re thinking. So I noticed that even with my clients where I’m like you’re nailing it, you did an incredible job on this. I don’t know that they always expect to hear that from people that they’ve hired. And actually, when you speak to people’s brilliance, I think it just reinforces that they then kind of say like, but you’re so awesome at this.
And I really do believe that that creates a mutually reinforcing dynamic where I just now, through our conversation, noticed I don’t struggle as much with judging my clients. I find kinder ways that are more understanding and empathetic and more real because I’m like, I also don’t have my shit together sometimes or I also had times where I was the last to be chosen or I didn’t know what to do. And I think that’s very humbling and very magnetic for the clients.
Jenna: Yes, absolutely. And I too needed to learn the skills. And that’s why now I’m going to help you with these skills and I’m going to lead the way so that you also don’t have to be burning the candle at both ends, right?
So good. So good. Kat, it’s been amazing, as always. Thank you so much for coming on again and sharing all of this evolution. I know it’s going to be so impactful for people.
Kat: Thank you so much for having me on. I love being on your podcast. I’m your number one podcast fan, number one fan in general. So thank you so much.
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